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The pass mark is at 100%

 
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The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 12:30:20   
Frank Prokop

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 5 February 2004
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The recent debates and ongoing minor skirmishes have prompted me to write this in recognition of the ongoing difficulties which the recreational fishing sector continually faces when trying to establish legitimacy with politicians and the wider community.

The biggest problem of all is that Recfishwest, industry leaders and me personally are continually subject to a pass mark of 100%. When we are doing EXACTLY what you want, when you want it and in a format which you support and endorse - we are doing a good job. Frequently this does not attract attention or support (but it can often get some thanks and recognition and it is noted and appreciated) because it is after all, only logical that we support the only opinion that really matters - that of the individual in question.

However, when Recfishwest deviates one iota from the course of action that you feel is destined or totally correct - then many feel that we are worthless/useless/non-representative and you threaten to withhold your membership that you probably never got around to paying anyway.

One problem is that the next guy is doing the same thing from a completely different perspective - demanding that we support their position that may be 90 or 180 degrees away from yours. It is a balancing act and it is all too frequently done on a sabre's edge and it is very difficult to dodge bullets at the same time.

We niggle each other and disagree frequently in a fairly sporting way. Recfishwest and people like Ian Stagles and Terry Fuller put their heads higher above the parapets and consequently attract more flack, but that are also around when the chips are down and the hard, depressing slog of negotiating with philosophical opponents is being done. The members to this site (and also others) are the thinkers of recreational fishing and have a lot to contribute. Filling up with alcohol and a modem and venting your spleen at individuals and the Minister does no good and in many cases does considerable harm.

The truth is that sites like this ARE monitored by the powers that be and honestly we are a joke. Recreational anglers lost the Blackwood River commercial fishing debate due to a single poorly considered post on (a different) web site. Some of the posts on the a number of recent threads have done uncalculable harm to the legitimacy of recreational fishers to be an active part of a considered and strategic approach to marine conservation planning in this state.

While the sentiments are reasonable and the proponents mean well, they have ignored every personal and private entreaty to remember the war and not the battle and have continued to run an agenda (their agenda) and have seriously undermined the credibility of recreational fishing as a legitimate stakeholder in the process. I know that this was unintentional but I'm sorry - it is being done because I deal with the train wreck of divided opinion on the process failures almost every second of every day.

This is not about toeing a line or repressing debate. It is about a little bit of trust and staying focussed on the outcomes. We have more doubting Thomas's than just about any industry around. And we carry on like little children (yes this also applies to me on more than one occasion) when we don't get the bag of lollies at the checkout.

Almost every one of you (and me too) have expressed an opinion and reacted or over-reacted to another, also legitimate, response.

Things take enormous amounts of time to get through the political processes. Recreational fishers are also responsible for the slow pace because of the difficulty in consulting with grass roots or regionally based fishers whose opinions are important but take time to obtain. Frequently Recfishwest is working behind the scenes with the decision makers to achieve an outcome that frequently involves compromise and give and take. When we dig in our heels we lose - simple! That doesn't mean that when we compromise we get anything - look at Ningaloo and there are many behind the scenes discussions that have never and will never become public knowledge even when my parentage or the status of my backside are called into question. Simply put, if we EVER betray these confidences they will never come again. So we might get a moment of glory and some recognition as a peak body with real teeth - but we will be biting our own tails in the future because the avenues to the decision makers will be closed.

You can't have a peak body that only does what everyone wants. Disagree? - then think about it. A representative body has to go to the lowest common denominator and in recreational fishing that is VERY low. If 99% do the right thing, we still have 6,430 total ratbags masquarading as legit recreational fishers. A peak body leads from the front and that means that your back is exposed (I already have the complete set of steak knives thanks!). Sometimes you get it wrong, at the practical or political level. While I strongly and honestly believe that a general recreational fishing licence is essential for future legitimacy and funding sources, the greater public and the politicians do not agree. Smart anglers back down pretty quickly at a BBQ when the resident social engineer takes them on to proclaim that it is 'an offense against humanity' or some equally banal comment. The opponents may not be right, but they are numerous and the road is a long and dangerous one on this issue.

So it is a matter of timing and opportunity and sometimes incredible flexibility to achieve an outcome (remember that it was us who preserved the recreational boating facilities money!!). This will not be to everyones liking but winning the war for legitimacy is a very long term battle and one that can NEVER, EVER be won with a 100% pass mark. And if I am spending all my time on a single issue in a small area like shark fishing - I might make a few individuals happy, but the fish habitat protection proposals for the Kimberley that have principle and applied importance go through to the keeper without recreational involvement. Our definitive letters on the topic only get 95% and that is considered a failure to way too many.

Take netting for example which has been debated several times on this web site. The 1990 review recommended it being phased out -yet there has been almost no deifinitive action in this regard. Those who net fight with their last breath to protect it, citing historical use and specious statements about the need to catch mullet. Bottom line - since 1990 there has been no real reson whatsoever to allow recreational gill netting in Western Australia - yet it continues to this day - in my opinion to the shame of a state that likes to think it is progressive and manages its fisheries well. Many sit on the fence and say - awwwww let 'em be - they ain't doin' too much harm......

Then we bitch and moan when the commercial estuary or SW salmon fishers rely on historical rights as the only real reason for them to continue fishing!!

Incredibly, for all the opinions on Recfishwest, very few contribute. We find it difficult to get Board members. I might get a few new paid up members after a post like this but it is not much. I will probably get a few PM's of support or antagonism from those who felt that they were being singled out - this isn't about singling out people I can assure you - this is about getting the capacity to have some trust and accept that if you need to win, you will be disappointed in fisheries management.

I will have a rest for a while from web posting. It is too emotionally and spiritually draining. I am certain that Terry Fuller and others will continue to post, even though I wonder why somethimes.

Recfishwest puts all its submissions up on the web and they are the product of much more than mine or any one members of the Board. They are pretty good, although none of them can ever make the 100% pass mark that so many set as the minimum.

Frank Prokop

< Message edited by Frank Prokop -- 3 May 2006 12:46:11 >
Post #: 1
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 12:55:47   
Daniel Mance


Posts: 6789
Joined: 5 June 2003
From: TLC Basement
Status: offline
quote:

Those who net fight with their last breath to protect it, citing historical use and specious statements about the need to catch mullet.


I don't think its specious at all frank, catching mullet is the only reason i chuck the net in, so it isn't a false statement.

You wouldnt get a more diverse group of people than rec fishers. We're all entitled to our opinion, and they usually differ to quite a degree as you have no doubt seen. I agree with a lot of your agendas Frank, but you're never gonna get 100% acceptance. There's always gonna be conflict.

I also find it hard to believe after 1000's of "official" submissions that a government would be swayed by a few posts on a random website , on any issue.

Keep up the good work, but expect people to get fired up now and then over contentious issues.....


_____________________________

Mancey

On the v5 revision...
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Adams
I reckon it is a wishy washy decision. Talk about Nero fiddling while Rome burned.

(in reply to Frank Prokop)
Post #: 2
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 13:17:47   
Jamie Chester


Posts: 2260
Joined: 2 February 2006
Status: offline
I do understand Frank's statement about posts though - logically some random posts on a site might not mean anything but it provides people with ammo - ammo that is best not given to them.

_____________________________

Jamie Chester
www.accessantennas.com.au

What I write is definitive - it is reality that is frequently inaccurate.

(in reply to Daniel Mance)
Post #: 3
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 13:26:54   
Jamie Chester


Posts: 2260
Joined: 2 February 2006
Status: offline
And in the long run doesn't help Recfishwest's or rec fishing in general's cause. Unfortunately representatives for the other sectors (ie commercial fishing, diving, greenies) tend to have a more unified front. Certainly easy for the greenies - "DON"T TOUCH ANYTHING" - then they drive around in their cars and wear cotton clothes and have four kids.

Must be hard to represent such a diverse body of people.

And sometimes the empty can rattles the most - which makes it hard.

_____________________________

Jamie Chester
www.accessantennas.com.au

What I write is definitive - it is reality that is frequently inaccurate.

(in reply to Daniel Mance)
Post #: 4
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 13:37:14   
Adam Gallash


Posts: 278
Joined: 3 March 2005
From: fishwrecked.com, exmouth
Status: offline
I agree Frank. I don't think that you could ever expect 100% of people to support you, I do believe that if a majority think that you are doing the right thing then that is good enough. (Works for the politicians) Public forum's are a great place to start discussion, get the word out, debate and express opinion - I can understand the reasons why you question sticking your head over the parapet when there are 'enemies' in the same trench.

I believe the timing is right and you are doing whats best for WA anglers. There are extremely important conservation/environmental/fisheries issues right now that need to be posted in forums, spread in the papers, over the airwaves and it is a perfect opportunity for Recfishwest to stand up and be heard more than ever. Especially with new labour leaders, new opposition leaders and the turbulent political environment of late here in WA.

Maybe a few reminders to the Liberals would be a great place to start. If they want to be in power next term then its time for them to start winning people over. Maybe getting them to help fight the battle might be an excellent way to achieve the desired outcomes?
I would have thought an opposition party would have jumped on the way the government has handled environmental/fisheries concerns - Ellenbrook, Mandurah, Blackwood, Rottnest and many more, especially considering we have such a huge recreational fishing segment that are losing their rights and abilities to exercise their leisure time/hobbies/family fun at an alarming rate. Fishing sustainability is one thing, conservation gone mad is another league all together.

There are still plenty of us that believe that Recfishwest is doing what is best for Western Australian anglers. Don't give up the battle Frank, the war has only just begun.

< Message edited by adam gallash -- 3 May 2006 13:49:40 >

(in reply to Daniel Mance)
Post #: 5
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 14:42:02   
Terry Fuller

 

Posts: 2050
Joined: 5 June 2003
From: Hamersley, Western Australia
Status: online
I prepared this (and more) for a post on another forum, but these parts fits here too.

Other people and organisations, including politicians, do watch what is said on forums and judge the degree of feeling and opposition and the validity, relevance and strength of the points raised.

It is very easy for these people to misread what is posted and get a completely wrong impression of what the general opinions are or what some particular person means and stands for.

The outcome of all of this is that they can say "this is not an issue which we need to worry about" either politically or in terms of doing the right thing. "Just let it take its course because the vocal people seem to be in favour" - regardless of the merits. "Vocal" doesn't mean "majority" but will be used as though it did. More cop outs.

The "other side" of these issues must be rolling on the floor laughing their socks off at the disorganised rabble of recreational anglers who argue amongst themselves about misunderstandings, trivial points, off topics and sometimes completely lose sight of the big picture.

They must be thinking "we do not have to worry about arguing our case, the recreational fishermen will self-destruct on this and we can get whatever we want" And the way some of these discussions go, they are probably right.

The "other sides" almost certainly troll through the fishing forums, counting the apparent "fors" and "againsts" to get all the comments by anglers which can be used or misrepresented to support their (other) side of the case.

Do you see them arguing amongst themselves in public about the small details? Not often, and usually its only like "not enough, lock up lots more" anyway.

Everyone has a right to say what they think in the name of free speech and the right to express an opinion.

But everyone needs to make sure that their comments don't stop other people from expressing an opinion or give ammo to the other side.

Who has been discouraged from posting through not wanting to expose themselves to criticisms and insults or worse.?

Everyone needs to be very aware and think very carefully about what result their posts will have. Will it be used to come up with the right answer, or will it be used in the wrong way and end up "justifying" the wrong answer?.

It is easy to handle misunderstandings and misrepresentations and factual errors - but only if personal comments and pushing of barrows and off topics are managed properly.

It can be hard work to moderate posts, and it's often unpopular, but it is not rocket science. Work out which threads really need to be managed, what is important about that, what is relevant and make people stick to the issues.

Any side issues can be posted somewhere else (same or different forum) if people really want to pursue them.

Any surrender allowing complete freedom for people to post whatever they like on very important issues like Rottnest without managing the posters and/or their comments is likely to be counter productive and likely to achieve exactly the opposite of what should be aimed for. That's management and strategy, not censorship.

Sad, and such a waste that so much time and effort is gobbled up so it is not available to use on the real issues.

Easily fixed by a bit of trust (OK sometimes a lot of trust) or private questions.

Ask first, think hard and don't jump into posting.... PLEASE And get it edited if you have second thoughts.

TerryF
=====

Beavering away in the background......

(in reply to Adam Gallash)
Post #: 6
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 14:57:03   
Ian Stagles


Posts: 2233
Joined: 4 June 2003
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline
There are some very well considered words there from both Frank and Terry, and recreational angers would do well to read them at least twice before they post on this forum at least.

Thanks guys.


_____________________________

Stages

At election time, when the State Government says "no fishing closures at Rottnest", apparently it means nothing...

(in reply to Terry Fuller)
Post #: 7
[Deleted] - 3 May 2006 15:51:50   
Deleted User
[Deleted by Admins]

(in reply to Ian Stagles)
  Post #: 8
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 16:00:36   
Ian Stagles


Posts: 2233
Joined: 4 June 2003
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline
The post was directed at everyone Wally, not just you.

_____________________________

Stages

At election time, when the State Government says "no fishing closures at Rottnest", apparently it means nothing...

(in reply to Deleted User)
Post #: 9
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 16:14:57   
Patrick Lodge


Posts: 396
Joined: 16 January 2006
From: Hillarys
Status: offline
All very interesting and well written, but perhaps a little too much credit being given to other interest groups and their supposed ability to present a united front. They (the so-called green lobby) are undoubtedly more effective at garnering joe pubic support so therefore 1 of our jobs (collectively) must be to show joe public our real face, hell a responsible angler is a conservationist, not just fish stocks but whole ecosystem stuff, from what goes into our rivers, down our toilets and ultimately into our ocean.

Healthy debate is just that, and should be that...debate, not vitriol. It may well be that some things (for example the Rottnest lockups) need to be sacrificed to win a greater goal and to establish (more accurately, confirm) our credentials, or maybe not. Perhaps (ala Zone 5 proposal) it is up to us to take a proactive rather than reactive stance towards things and hence outflank those whose proposals currently are in the spotlight, not just the spotlight of the politicians but also the spotlight of the general public.


_____________________________

Im no clown I wont back down

Pat

(in reply to Frank Prokop)
Post #: 10
[Deleted] - 3 May 2006 16:41:28   
Deleted User
[Deleted by Admins]

(in reply to Ian Stagles)
  Post #: 11
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 17:03:12   
Garry Lilley


Posts: 1335
Joined: 5 June 2003
Status: offline
like wally,i feel that franks whine is directed at me.
a few points before i rack off.........
nah,it doesnt matter.
move along.




(in reply to Patrick Lodge)
Post #: 12
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 18:12:56   
Paul Ross


Posts: 218
Joined: 30 August 2004
Status: offline
"debates and minor skirmishes"

I agree with many of the points that Frank and Terry have presented. Lets all remember what the word forum means:
"a place of assembly for people"
"the forum of public opinion"
"an assembly for the discussion of questions of public interest"
"a court or tribunal"
Hamlyn World Dictionary
I like visiting the forum to read all of the above and if someone posts they are judged for their opinion which is fine. Lets just hope people don't get scared to post because of how they will be judged by fellow Wangler members.
Paul

_____________________________

Go Hard or Go Home

(in reply to Garry Lilley)
Post #: 13
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 18:40:45   
Jamie Chester


Posts: 2260
Joined: 2 February 2006
Status: offline
Paul I think that it's more to do with delivering a unified front rather than opinionated, hiding-behind-the-keyboard, shoot from the hip comments.

Bottom line - united we stand divided we fall.

I think recfishwest needs to deliver slightly compromised, for the greater good type results. Given our support I'm sure they can do it.

The problem is we are all so passionate about our particular and varied opinions that sometimes its hard to see the forest from the trees.

I've run out of cliches here.

But you get my point. Pushing personal agendas without detailed and well thought out reasoning is counter productive.

_____________________________

Jamie Chester
www.accessantennas.com.au

What I write is definitive - it is reality that is frequently inaccurate.

(in reply to Paul Ross)
Post #: 14
RE: The pass mark is at 100% - 3 May 2006 19:22:32   
Graham Baldwin


Posts: 744
Joined: 23 September 2004
From: Waikerie on The Murray
Status: offline
As someone who look in from interstate, it a very high pass mark you have set for yourselves and everyone else.

The ultimate problem is Rec Fishing is such a diverse mixture of people, styles of fishing etc etc etc.

An example on the east coast, many so called experts and fishermen want the Murray Cod totally protected because their view is they are endangered to the point were they are deminishing stocks left. Where the Murray Valley fisherman will fight to last breath to retain his right to catch Murray Cod because he knows over the last 10 years the amount of Cod in the river has increased and European Carp have declined in vast sections of the Murray, Wakool and Edwards Rivers. So whos right the fisherman who see more young fish than ever before or the expert or the fishing journo who visits the region rarely.

But each will defend there point of view to the detriment rec fishing, bottom line consensus with alittle bit of give and take from all sides is the only option.

" Is it time to re-visit a fishing licence " if you contribute you should be heard.

_____________________________

Hooked on Fishing-----------------------------<*))))><

(in reply to Jamie Chester)
Post #: 15
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